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[MusikerongBundukero]

Still (like some of my posted questions already) I'm in the process. But since I'm outside the country I have like 4 months more to throw and bug you guys... Hope you won't mind.

Okay another question I have is... Using a two-wire lamp module for 6 LED (of 8W each) lamps. This can work up to 250W so wattage is out of question.  (See the product yourself please...)
http://x10modules.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=20

Will this work? Oh, I should mention that the 6 lamps are wired like an octopus by my stupid electrician. By saying that, all lamps are meeting at one point in the junction box.  I am an Electronics Engineer and when I saw things done, I cannot do anything about it because of labor cost added if I will modify it to parallel, having the lamps connected one after the other.

The single switch placed is at the main wire series to one of the 2 power lines.

What do you think guys?

[dave w]

Using a two-wire lamp module for 6 LED (of 8W each) lamps.

Because of power factor, an 8W LED bulb may draw a lot more than 8 watts, but that's another discussion, and may not apply to your bulbs anway. That said:
A two wire wall switch draws parasitic power for it's internal electronics in the OFF state by leakage through the INCANDESCENT bulb filament. Most LED and CFL bulbs will not supply this leakage power. This is one of the several reasons X10 says "Incandescent bulbs only" in ads and on switch instructions for their two wire switches. I run CFLs on a two wire wall switch (WS467) by having an incandescent bulb in the circuit which supplies the leakage current. 

Also many LED bulbs, like CFL bulbs, do not like being dimmed, even the short ramp on - ramp off feature of the newer wall switches can cause problems. So even throwing an incandescent bulb in the mix, may not solve all problems.

If you have a neutral line in the wall box you can use a relay style switch like the X10 Pro XPS3 or similar "non dimming" switch from Smarthome.com.

[Brian H]

If the LED bulbs are not rated to be safely dimmed. You would have a problem and I have found even dimmable LEDs are not happy with X10  two wire dimmers.

As dave w mentioned. You have inrush and repetitive peak currents to consider.
I have a 8.5 watt Dimmable LED bulb and the manufactures says count it as a 80 watt load when adding up the wattage on a dimmer.
I have a Technical note from the ASSIST Alliance. As an electronic engineer you may find it interesting.
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/assist/pdf/ASSIST-TechNote-Dimming-InrushCurrent.pdf

[MusikerongBundukero]

How about an X10 contactor? Is that what you mention Dave? I believe marmitek also offers this. Although doing so will be painful because I have to dismantle my ceiling to have the access to the junction box.

And yes, those are dimmable LEDs. (Sad to say even my current dimmable switch when ramped up or down, there's a certain level that light intensity flickers altogether, specially near the lowest). Moreso, if each could "eat" 80W, it would certainly be painful for my X10 module... As much as possible I don't want to replace my LEDs.

[Brian H]

Most LED manufactureres don't put the information on the packaging for the wattage used for dimmer calculations.
I have many times found it on the bulbs spec. sheet or tested dimmer chart. Found on the manufactureres web page.

You only have two wires in the switches electrical box and there is no Neutral {I believe some areas of the world call it the Zero Power Wire} ?

Not sure what dave w was thinking of. I am sure he will post more information.

I have seen reports of dimmable LED bulbs having limited dim range and low end flicker.
I have seen a white paper from Cree saying that our eyes perceive dimming levels nonlinearly. As the light get dimmer. The eyes adjust to the lower level and you don't think the bulbs level changed.

[dave w]

How about an X10 contactor? Is that what you mention Dave?

No, I do not know about X10 contractors. With X10's latest "pull back" I wonder if there are any X10 contractors left in US. Where are you located?

[Brian H]

Dave, I believe he was asking about a contactor. Like in a relay that is On or Off only.

Since you are linking to 230 volt 50 cycle devices. You are not in a country that uses 120 volts 60 cycles?
Most of the Smarthome Insteon devices are 120 volts 60 cycles. Though they have now spread to other parts of the world and their latest modules are now 100-240 volt and detect 50 or 60 cycles.

[dave w]

Dave, I believe he was asking about a contactor. Like in a relay that is On or Off only.

I wonder if there is a pill for OGS (Old Geezer Syndrome). I seem to be having a flare up.

[Brian H]

My OGS seems to flair up from time to time. 

[Dan Lawrence]

I suspect that trying to use one module for 6 lamps would not work anywhere X10 is used.  It would probably burn out any single module regardless of voltage used..   

[MusikerongBundukero]

Thanks Dave and Brian, I'm learning a lot.

I'm in the Philippines, 220V 60Hz and sadly, I haven't heard any household in my neighbors or anywhere in the city with automated system we're talking about so I might just have my feet wet into it and see how it feels. If turns out right, I sell the idea. That's my ultimate plan.

Most wiring here does not include the third wire in the installation... Petty bad. I should have read all about X10 before I started my unit interior reconstructed.

I'm actually talking about this "contactor" or relays.. You're right Brian. I thought the DIN X10 appliance and lamp modules are contactor types, using alternative power.. LOL, they just look like one. Anyways, I found one relay in Z-wave which, I'm not sure if it would work with X10...

I've read the article you posted Brian, and i also found this article about the signal clipping to induce the dimming effect. http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/kingery02.htm
That explains pretty well. Wish I should have known how they design these dimmable LEDs...

Seems like I have no choice but to run a neutral wire to the lamps, and forget about the dimming...

[Brian H]

The X10 DIN Appliance Module is a relay type. Strictly On and Off. Should work any kind of load including LED bulbs. It uses Line and Neutral for power so it does not steal power through the Load. It also means you need an available Neutral power wire in addition to the Line and Load wires.

They do make dimmers that get their power from the Line and Neutral. Not stealing power through the load.
A dimmable LED on that type of dimmer may work. I have tried a few dimmable LED bulbs on dimmer modules that use the Line, Neutral and Load connections. Most work fine.

The latest Insteon Switches that are now using universal power 100-230 volts 50-60 cycles may work. I believe the option to add an X10 address to them is still there.

I have a two wire Home Settings HA20C and it steals power through the load and also needs a incandescent type load.

[MusikerongBundukero]

Hey guys.. See the reply from Marmitek:

Regarding LED lighting - if your LED lamps are compatible with standart type phase dimmers, they could be dimmed with LW12 modules. Please also note that in this case the minimum required power of lamps connected to a single module is 40W.

So, can I be confident with LW12? Help.. Help...

[Brian H]

I would not be real confident in using any dimmable LED bulb with a two wire X10 dimmer.

Though my tests where with X10 modules for US specifications and may have not had enough load on them.
Marmitek should know their modules characteristics and tested them with dimmable lights. Their own manual says incandescent or halogen loads.

My feelings are the electronics in dimmable bulbs will interfere with the X10 signals or prevent enough residual current when Off to keep the module powered up.

You do know that the LW12 requires you change the wall switch to a momentary push type to control it?

[MusikerongBundukero]

Yes I know.. Okay then, I will take time to study when I get back to my country how to wire this 3-wire system to another dimmable. Hey Brian, I really appreciate all the help. You too Dave.