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[andyd]

It's been a long time since my last post perhaps because my basic CM15A control system continues to do what I intended to do.

I was digging through my box of X10 stuff and came across two KR15A "Big Reds".  I had abandoned these a long time ago as I could not get them to switch anything.   I decided to investigate why they didn't work.

Using a digital storage scope I was able to sample the internal logic waveform that controls the RF transmitter and also the RF output itself.  I captured the waveforms and decoded them.  For a single short press of the button the device sends 3 words  - A1 ON, A bright 005, A bright 005.   As far as I have been able to research, this is the intended word sequence.  The RF envelope shows clean on/off switching between data bits (much better than some of my wall switches).  However, the KR15A is not seen by my CM15A and does not switch on a separate test setup consisting of a TM751 and a lamp module. 

I also checked the frequency of the RF output.  It is closer to 310 MHz than other RF transmitters that work ok.

Does anyone on group have a KR15A that does turn on a lamp module that is set to the same code?  If so, do you have the equipment/ability to capture the RF command sequence and let me know what it is sending?  If using a digital storage scope I'd like to see the waveform captures.

I'll be happy to share my test results by email off group if anyone is interested in sharing data.

I know I should just bin them but I'm retired and I'm curious.

Thanks,
Andy D.

[Brian H]

Here is a link to some of the X10 RF protocol.
Not sure if it will be any help.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/rf.html

You probably know the KR15A is a unique X10 remote. Short button push sends an X10 On command. Hold the button longer is is supposed to ding a SH10A small Powerhorn. Hold it longer it triggers a siren sound from the SH10A small Powerhorn.

I will unpack one of my KR15A remotes and see what I can find out. Though mine where very flaky even after a direct reset.
 

[Brian H]

All three of my KR15A from storage have very intermittent Red Buttons.
I suspect that is why the TM751 and RR501 showed a different number of ABright commands.

Smarthome 1132CU Interface for receiving the X10 Power Line Commands:

Single Button Push. RR501 Transceiver:
R: A1 - 6:42:31 PM 4/19/2017
R: AOn - 6:42:31 PM 4/19/2017
R: ABright - 6:42:32 PM 4/19/2017
R: ABright - 6:42:32 PM 4/19/2017

Single Button Push. TM751 Transceiver:
R: A1 - 7:26:25 PM 4/19/2017
R: AOn - 7:26:25 PM 4/19/2017
R: ABright - 7:26:26 PM 4/19/2017

Two different CM15A Interfaces with all House Codes set to be Transceived. One real early hardware one a later hardware.
I know they had different firmware version suffixes on the controller IC.
No RF commands received from a KR15A. They did process RF commands from a HR12A Palm Pad.

Tried a X10Pro PLM01 Lamp Module not Soft Start. Went On 100%
Tried a Black and Decker Freeewire. FWLR not Soft Start. Went On 100%.
Tried a X10 LM14A Two Way Lamp Module. Has Soft Start. Went On to about 50%
Tried a X10 LM465 Soft Start early firmware. Went On to about 50%.
Tried a X10 LM456 Soft Start later firmware. Went On to about 50%

The ABright commands probably set the On level for the Soft Start Models.
Old no Soft Start go full On then dim down.

[dhouston]

I'd like to see the 'scope traces. While it has been a long while, I once was very familiar with the RF protocol. Maybe I'll see something to explain this. Might the KR15A be sending the security protocol? See...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/rf.html

[andyd]

Thanks for the replies. 

I used internet references "X10 RF Receiver" which explains that X10 follows NEC IR protocol and also "NEC Infrared Transmission Protocol" as reference documents.  Neither of these references mention a "preamble" that is referenced in other sources.  I'm assuming the "preamble" is only used for devices that interface with security systems.  My "Big Red" does not transmit a preamble.

I have attempted to attach 3 scope captures.  There are Word 1, Word 2, and Word 3 of the RF transmission.  I have also attempted to attach the worksheet that documents my analysis of the waveforms.

Thanks for the interest.

Andy D

[andyd]

"Two different CM15A Interfaces with all House Codes set to be Transceived. One real early hardware one a later hardware.
I know they had different firmware version suffixes on the controller IC.
No RF commands received from a KR15A. They did process RF commands from a HR12A Palm Pad."

Well that is consistent with what I see. I have not been able to turn on any lamp modules but I don't have a big selection to test. 

Thanks for running the tests!

Andy D

[dhouston]

Thanks for the 'scope screenshots. The only X10 RF Receiver documentation I could find online is a 12 page PDF which, after borrowing heavily from my webpage (which I referenced earlier), goes on to provide an excellent explanation.
www.printcapture.com/files/X10_RF_Receiver.pdf

Returning to your screenshots, the first decodes to A1 ON and it uses the X10 Standard RF Protocol.  Here I use Standard to differentiate from the X10 Security RF Protocol (motion sensors, etc.). Since it is transmitting the standard codes rather than the security version it should be handled by the CM15A. NOTE: I am not really familiar with the standard CM15A - I've replaced the MCU with one of my own design.

How many copies of the code does the KR15A transmit? If it is only sending a single copy, that may not be sufficient for the CM15A's AGC circuitry. Most remotes send a minimum of 5 copies but the security remote (SH624) sends a single copy.

I have daily medical appointments that take about half the day (and some leave me exhausted) so my assistance, such as it is, may be sporadic.

[Brian H]

I found the newer TM751 modules also do not process the KR15A RF commands.

XTB-IIR Coupler Repeater turned off.
Smarthome 1132CU power line interface receiving commands.

The two newer TM751s are the ones marked. Tested To Comply To FCC Standards.
They have the same basic RF receiver daughter board in them as the CM15A.
The older one has the actual FCC ID on it and a different receiver circuit.

Interface TM751 Date Code 00D17:
HR12A Remote:
R: A1 - 7:13:49 AM 4/20/2017
R: AOn - 7:13:49 AM 4/20/2017
KR15A:
R: A1 - 7:21:31 AM 4/20/2017
R: AOn - 7:21:31 AM 4/20/2017
R: ABright - 7:21:31 AM 4/20/2017
R: MDim - 7:21:32 AM 4/20/2017 (Not sure what this is.)

Interface TM751 Date Code 10E19:
HR12A Remote:
R: A1 - 7:26:02 AM 4/20/2017
R: AOn - 7:26:02 AM 4/20/2017
KR15A Remote:
Did not process the RF commands.

Interface TM751 Date Code 09L53:
HR12A Remote:
R: A1 - 7:38:53 AM 4/20/2017
R: AOn - 7:38:54 AM 4/20/2017
KR15A Remote:
Did not process the RF commands.

I also tried a few different aged RR501s. They all seemed to be fine with the KR15A.

[andyd]

"How many copies of the code does the KR15A transmit? "

A single short press of the red button sends 3 words as shown in the scope captures.  My decodes of these three words were included in the worksheet.  There is only one copy of "A1 ON" per button press.  i tried pressing the button several times but the TM751 did not respond.

I noticed the similarity between the PDF and the web  page.  In even reproduces the typo "ACG" which should be "AGC" (Automatic Gain Control).

Andy D

[dhouston]

The two newer TM751s are the ones marked. Tested To Comply To FCC Standards.
They have the same basic RF receiver daughter board in them as the CM15A.

All the above are superheterodyne receivers while the others are superregenerative receivers. I suspect it's a matter of different AGC circuitry with the superhets needing more repeats of each code. A better receiving antenna may also make a difference,

[Brian H]

SC1200 Security Console Date Code 10L52
Has an RF receiver daughter board.
Maybe using the same RX3310 RF receiver IC as the newer TM751 and CM15A.

HR12A:
R: A1 - 8:28:12 AM 4/20/2017
R: AOn - 8:28:13 AM 4/20/2017
KR15A:
No RF processing.

[dhouston]

A single short press of the red button sends 3 words as shown in the scope captures.  My decodes of these three words were included in the worksheet.  There is only one copy of "A1 ON" per button press.  i tried pressing the button several times but the TM751 did not respond.

I had overlooked the link to your worksheet.

I noticed the similarity between the PDF and the web  page.  In even reproduces the typo "ACG" which should be "AGC" (Automatic Gain Control).

I wrote that about 20 years ago. My typo has gone unreported (maybe unnoticed) in all those years.

I still think it's related to the AGC and maybe the supervising MCU on the receiver board wants to see repeats.

I don't think the Dims will mean anything to a lamp that's off. Does a lamp that's initially ON dim a wee bit?

It would be of interest (at least to me) to see how the superhet devices respond to the SH624 if you or Brian should have one.

[andyd]

"The two newer TM751s are the ones marked. Tested To Comply To FCC Standards."

The TM751 used for the test has that marking.  It also has a sticker "07K45" which I'm assuming is the date code.  I have another TM751 opened up as the electrolytic cap has failed.  It has the same FCC marking and sticker code and It uses the Himark receiver board.

When testing the "Big Red" with the TM751 the separation ranged between a few feet and a few inches.  I don't think lack of signal was a factor although it's possible receiver overload was.  AGC typically sets the receiver at max gain until a signal is received then the gain is reduced as needed for that signal.

When I browsed this group for posts about the KR15A I was left with the impression that many had been returned as inop and had been replaced with a version that worked.  I wonder if that later version included multiple repeats of the commands.

Andy D.

[Brian H]

The KR15A I was testing with was a 00I37 and had a sticker on it P10378D. I believe that is the controller chips part number and the "D" suffix was firmware version.
I have also seen different suffixes on the main controller chip part number in the CM15.

I can dig out my SH624 from my now mothballed  SC1200 Security Console system. To see what I can find out.

All three of my KR15A remotes have very intermittent buttons. The one I am testing with had to be disassembled and the PCB runs and rubber conductive pads on the buttons where cleaned so it would work fairly well.

[andyd]

"The KR15A I was testing with was a 00I37 and had a sticker on it P10378D."

I don't know what the codes mean but, just for the record, my KR15A used to produce the scope captures is also P10378D with sticker 06J42.

Andy D