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[Pleasanton]

I have an old house, built 1950, without the third wire. Most of the wall outlets have only two holes for the plugs.

In the kitchen there is a cieling fan, with a light below on the same switch.
As long as the fan is off, a standard X10 wall switch works fine. If the fan is on, sometimes it won't turn it off, and I am concerned about the dimming feature.

Can I hook up my WS13A without using the neutral?
What will happen?

How else can I do this?

My thanks for any assistance!

[dave w]

Pleasanton

With out a neutral, the WS13 will likely work just like the "standard X10 wall switch" is working and not turn off when the fan is on (if it works at all).  The "standard X10 wall switch" derives operating power, parasitically through the load. When you have the fan motor on, that power is probably pretty noisy (did you try the fan motor on "high" which will be the motors least noisy mode). That noise masks the OFF signal sent from remotes. The WS13, since it requires a nuetral, does not derive its power parasitically through the load, hence is more immune to the motor noise.

Check the yellow note on the WS13A description.
http://www.x10.com/automation/ws13a_s.html

[Pleasanton]

Thanks, that was quick, and impressive.

Yes, I see the yellow sign says just that. I recall the instructions in the box said something, which was why I didn't install. (In the 1960 addition, there was a neutral wire.)

Q. Is Nuetral the same as ground?
Could I pull a single additional wire to the box, and either run it back to my panel, or to a ground?
I have the same question for the many wall outlets without a third wire.

Jim from Pleasanton, Ca

[roger1818]

Q. Is Neutral the same as ground?

No, a neutral wire is different from a ground wire.  The neutral wire is the return path for the electricity under normal conditions (a white wire is typically used).  The ground wire is for safety pourposes and is typically connected to the metal case of the load.  If a malfunction should occur and a live wire touches the case, the ground wire will provide an alternate return path instead of through your body (a bare copper wire is typically used).

Could I pull a single additional wire to the box, and either run it back to my panel, or to a ground?
I have the same question for the many wall outlets without a third wire.

This depends on your local electrical code.  Typically though you are not allowed to run just a neutral wire back to your panel, but you are allowed to run a ground wire. 

For your switch you have 2 options:

1) Run a piece of 2-wire Lumex (2 wires plus ground) from the switch back to your panel.  This will give you Hot, Neutral and Ground wires at the switch.  You can then use the 2-wires between the switch and the fan as switched hot and neutral and cap off the existing Hot and Neutral at the fan.  Technically you could use the 2 wires between the switch and the fan to control the light and fan separately and use the neutral that is already there, but that may be a violation of your local electrical code.

2) Use an in-line module at the fan to switch them on and off and then use a transmit only switch (making sure that you connect the existing 2 wires to Hot and Neutral).

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

[Pleasanton]

Thanks, Roger.

I'm not sure I follow.

I think I have now 2 wires at the box. One in, across the switch, then using the other on to the light.
I assume theres a 'return' from the light to complete the circuit.
(as if one white and one black.)

I gather you are suggesting pulling a 3 wire "Romex" (with two "real" wires and an exposed ground wire ,all in a heavy flexible jacket) back to the panel, other end at the switchbox.  What happens to the existing 2 wires?
Wouldn't using just one of those for the missing neutral make the X10 switch work? I guess the Romex would look safer than just one loose wire.

If I'm doing all this wiring, maybe there is an easier way to control the fan, other than pulling the cords?
I'd probably be happy just to have the light on the X10, which might be easier if I take down the fan, rewire it so the fan has its power separate from the light? Would avoid running a wire back to the panel. There's an attic with access above the fan, and the panel is about 20 feet away. Whaddya think?

Note: Won't be back until tommorrow,

Thanks so much.

Should this be a separate thread?

[roger1818]

I think I have now 2 wires at the box. One in, across the switch, then using the other on to the light.
I assume theres a 'return' from the light to complete the circuit.
(as if one white and one black.)

For a standard switch, newer houses have 4 wires (not including ground wires) at either the switch box or the fixture box and 2 wires at the other.  In the box with 4 wires, 2 of the wires connect the two boxes together and 2 of the wires.

I don't have much experience with the knob and tube wiring that is found in older houses, but it sounds like they are wired with only 2 wires at both the switch box and the fixture box.  My guess is that the hot wire runs from the electrical panel directly to the switch box, a switched wire runs from the switch box to the fixture box and a neutral wire runs from the fixture box directly back to the electrical panel.  This makes things very awkward for using a WS13A.

I gather you are suggesting pulling a 3 wire "Romex" (with two "real" wires and an exposed ground wire ,all in a heavy flexible jacket) back to the panel, other end at the switchbox.  What happens to the existing 2 wires?

Yes, although they call it 2 wire since they never count the ground wire.  A 3 wire cable has has a Red, Black and White wires plus a bare copper Ground wire.  This wire would replace the (black?) wire that goes from the panel to the switch box.  You would still use the switched wire that travels from the switch box to the fixture box and the neutral (white?) wire that travels from the fixture box back to the panel.  If you wanted you could upgrade the wiring and drag a new wire from the switch box to the fixture box and not use any of the old wires.  If you do this, use 3 wire so that you have the option of controlling the light and fan separately from the switch box.

Wouldn't using just one of those for the missing neutral make the X10 switch work? I guess the Romex would look safer than just one loose wire.

You answered your own question.  The electrical code in most areas don't allow single loose wires anymore (like you currently have).

If I'm doing all this wiring, maybe there is an easier way to control the fan, other than pulling the cords?
I'd probably be happy just to have the light on the X10, which might be easier if I take down the fan, rewire it so the fan has its power separate from the light? Would avoid running a wire back to the panel. There's an attic with access above the fan, and the panel is about 20 feet away. Whaddya think?

Yes you could run wires from the panel to the electrical box to power the fan (replacing the existing neutral wire) and use a regular wall switch to control the light.   It wouldn't be my preference though as most better quality "X10" wall switches require a neutral wire for improved reliability, but if it makes your life easier, that is worth something.

Should this be a separate thread?

Good idea.  As you can see, I split it into a new thread.

[dave w]

Pleasanton said

"maybe there is an easier way to control the fan, other than pulling the cords"

This is for inforation only since I am sure it did not meet code, but I have one appliance module and one lamp module controlling  a ceiling fan. I removed module prongs and added wires to an appliance and lamp module, essentially making my own XPDF and XPFM modules (www.x10pro.com). I then mounted the modules on the ceiling above the fan and wired the lamp module into the fans light and used the appliance for ON-OFF (only) control of the fan motor. I painted the modules same color as ceiling so they would not stand out. The wall switch was then left "on" all the time and I used X10 controller for fan and light control.

Originally I tried to use a lamp module for fan motor control also, after adding a "snubber" network to the module so it would more readily control the inductive load of the motor. Unfortunately the motor buzz was too loud to so I gave up the idea of a "non wall switch" X10 speed control. Even the WS13A makes most fan motors buzz. It is just the nature of trying to control a motors speed with a triac.

[Duck69]

I ran out of WS467 switches BUT I have extra WS13As'.
Can I use the WS13As' as a regular 2 wire switch ? If so. How do I hook it up ?
Thanks for your help.
Jim

[Brian H]

No; unlike the WS467; the WS13A needs a neutral wire in the switch box along with the Hot and Load wires the WS467 uses. The WS467 has a small amount of current running through the load all the time to steal some power to run. The WS13A uses the Hot and Neutral for it's power and the Load wire goes to the lights along with the neutral. It also has a control terminal for three way use. Also it is a relay type switch and will not dim; but can control things like small motors and CFLs.