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[bkenobi]

I've always been a little confused by the maximum reliable range for different components.  I have several devices ranging from remotes to motion sensors.  My primary RF devices are 3 types of remotes (KR19, KR22, HR12) and several motion sensors (MS16A), though I have a few other non-used devices (stick-a-switch, tv remotes).  I have a Radio Shack antenna and an amplifier/filter setup.  I understand these are different devices, but I don't understand why some have great performance while others are simply atrocious.

For instance:

If I walk around my property with the palmpad, I can easily reach the woods ~100' away with 100% reliability.  This has been tested primarily in warm weather with no rain.  The remote has line of sight to the roof, but it has to go through 1-2 drywall layers to see the antenna.  I can be close to the house from all sides and get very good coverage with near perfect reliability (there are a couple near dead spots based on the number of walls and structure the signal must penetrate).

If I use the KR22, I can get very good range, but not as good as the palm pad.  I would estimate that I can get ~50% line of sight distance compared to the palm pad.  I can get good reliability from most places with just a couple completely dead spots.

If I use the KR19, I get nearly the same performance to the KR22.

If I use the MS16A, I get terrible range period.  If I put the palmpad or KR remote next to the motion sensor mount location, I can get a signal.  If I press the button on the motion sensor, it really depends on it's preference that day seemingly.  Wet, cold, it's mood, etc seem to cause it to stop working while dry, warm, etc seem to be somewhat better.  This is only after adding a 1/4 wave antenna to each of 2 sensors and a 1/2 wave antenna to the other.

I imagine that the antenna inside the KR remotes (PCB trace?) is different than the palmpad (soldered on coil) and the motion sensor (soldered on coil).  Does this difference have to do with different radio chips, antennas, both, something else?  My primary reason for asking is to decide if I want to continue to work with these MS16A's or if I should find something else.  The problem is, something else will require a new receiver setup.  If I do that, I might as well consider a different approach overall.

I've been using the Heath Zenith motion wired motion sensors for a few years and the sensor itself seems good.  I have only had issues with my implementation into the HA setup.  They have a wireless version that would work for me, but I don't know how to interface it with my HA setup without using their plug-in unit and probably hacking it to use a PowerFlash.  I was envisioning using a radio that could plug into an Arduino or my Raspberry Pi, but searches leave me with no results.

One concept I am just now thinking about is a wireless relay at the Raspi end and some kind of trigger radio on the motion sensor end.  I don't know if it would be possible to make this battery powered at the sensor, though.

Any thoughts?

[bkenobi]

The last suggestion I had was somewhat akin to this youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CyB0sgYssI

I would be using a wireless relay at the Raspi and a hacked remote on the motion sensor side.  The alternative is to use a premade wireless remote from Heath Zenith and somehow get the Raspi to see the signals (much preferred and cleaner).  Decoding may be more difficult but using it as is would require multiple receivers potentially (unless I had it controlling the same input and set them to the same channel).

[joe s.]

Since your issue is primarily RF range you could consider two options also (if you haven't already tried them):

1) V572A (WGL whole house transceiver) - since I purchased mine many years ago, I have been able to use motions sensors extensively throughout my home.  Its all about placement of the device and its antenna....but you will need XTB523, PSC05 or TW523 to generate the X10 powerline signals.  Mine is actually plugged into my XTB-IIR repeater's compatible port to do that.

2) The newly re-available SR751 Smart RF Repeater (I have no experience with this re-released device).  You could manipulate it's placement in your home to "capture" specific/bad locations, I imagine.

Either option is worth a shot so you can make use of your off-the-shelf sensors.

[dhouston]

This is only after adding a 1/4 wave antenna to each of 2 sensors and a 1/2 wave antenna to the other.

Can you elaborate on this? If you have soldered antennas to the circuit boards, my advice is to throw the sensors away and start over. In my experience any attempt to do this so badly detunes the transmitters as to make them useless.

[bkenobi]

I've considered the repeater.I just haven't seen any reviews on the new version saying how it works with MS## motion sensors through multiple walls.  If I knew it could go 100m through 50 walls to a stock MS##, I'd jump on it right now.

I didn't go with a WGL unit originally since the RS antenna mod seemed to work well.  I believe the ranges they suggest are comparable to what I'm seeing, so I don't think it would help necessarily.  The previous owner had a completely different approach that I'm not going to use.  He installed RR501 and TM751 all over.  But, these won't work well with a CM15A (he had no computer/automation control, just remotes).

I think I'll try cutting a 36" length of wire to see if using a full wave passive antenna would help.  I'd rather use stock equipment, but hiding a passive antenna may be somewhat possible.  I've already got 1/4 and 1/2 wave, so full wave is only much bigger.  

[joe s.]

I didn't go with a WGL unit originally since the RS antenna mod seemed to work well

If you mean the mod to the CM15A antenna - I tried that back in 2003 but the results were a bit weak.  There really was no comparison between that and my (later installed) WGL device.  But I'm not pushing their device - just making sure you know how it compared in my application.

Edit:  Another odd thing - but it might be just the location I chose - I got better range to motion sensors with the WGL antenna tilted about 45 degrees.

[bkenobi]

I've got no pictures of my installation right now, but I installed the MS16's on a 2x4 that was cut on a 45° such that I could wall mount it (it's aimed 45° to the path so people walk past it but the sensor is aimed slightly towards them).  I installed the 1/4 wave passive antenna to that with silicon to the left side mounting it vertically.  I bent the antenna at ~30° away from the wall so that the angled section "aims" at the attic where the RS antenna is located.  This installation was used for 2 modules.  The third was a bit further away, so I used a 1/2 wave passive antenna and simply post mounted it (worked fine in that location).

The problems I have are 2 fold.  The weather is hard on these sensors and even silicon doesn't seem to fix them so eventually they corrode.  Even the passive antenna helps only so much.

I probably should have gone with the WGL originally, but I opted for the CM15 antenna mod simply due to locality.  I have a RS close by but no one close sells the WGL.  If I tried the RS and it didn't work, I could have taken it back and gone with WGL.  I couldn't do it the other way.  I limit my toy budget such that impulse purchases of one thing are ok, but multiple things don't work out.  Thus, I can't just buy a bunch of things to try to fix the problem.  I have to think it out and decide the best solution prior to jumping.  This tends to hurt the WAF, but I also don't have to worry about her saying I'm spending too much on the hobby!   

[joe s.]

I know what you mean.  WAF or not, I tend to limit my HA toy budget just 'cause I'm financially cautious (AKA a bit cheap).  I'm not close to anybody...I'm in Canada...so everything arrives USPS.  BUT...when I get totally exasperated - or - when I haven't spent money on HA for a long while (like a year or more), I have been known to splurge a bit to make a major improvement.  Plus, ebay is my friend - about half of the X-10 in my house was "previously enjoyed" or was someone else's excess goods.

[dave w]

I'm financially cautious (AKA a bit cheap).  

Great line!      May I borrow it?

[bkenobi]

My parents would probably say tight wad, but hey, what are you going to do?

The only component that seems bad on this ms16 is the per.  The case is all rusted, but I can't say the inside is affected.. There may be a bit of corrosion on a couple traces, though.  I can't say for sure that anything is compromised.  If I could source a PIR that would drop in, I'd try to salvage this module.

Just for kicks, I found the full and half wave passive antennas I cut way back.  As a simple test, I walked by one of my questionable sensors and it did not turn on the light.  I then held a /2 wave wire next to the 1/4 wave and the light immediately came on.  Perhaps I can simply swap antennas on these units.  That doesn't fix all problems, but if it fixed the range, I might stick with them and add more silicon.

[joe s.]

Lets engage a bit in a discussion as to how/why they work.  I've often wondered what the cycle time (if that's the correct term) is on the PIR inside those things - based on my experience its not continuous.  If I breeze by two sensors at the same time - one will fire and the other will ignore me.  Where its critical (my garage) the sensors are the only thing keeping the lights on while I'm in there.  I bought a box of 6 (previously owned) MS16 sensors on eBay quite a few years back and 10 MS13's at a very affordable price - and all but one were in great shape.  Three of them are currently set at different viewing angles in the garage because thats how many it takes to be detected absolutely 100% of the time while I'm in there.

I've also wondered (since I always have spares) if they are used in a protected indoor area; would removing the translucent window make them more sensitive to motion?  I do use them as occupancy sensors in a couple other areas in the house.  Anyone got any thoughts?

[bkenobi]

I don't think removing the lens would help.  If you look at it, there are a bunch of parabolic like structures all over the lens.  I believe I saw somewhere that this was intended to expand the view of the sensor to make it work better.  Mine broke on the non-functioning unit, so that might actually be part of my problem.  I used a bead of silicon to close it from the weather, but it's possible that the sensor thinks that the bead is constant movement depending on lighting and/or temperature.  I'll probably just buy a new one for reliability (assuming I go with another X10 module).  They are definitely the cheapest option even at the 2014 prices versus 2010 when I bought the originals. 

Speaking of which, anyone have a stock pile of MS16A's they want to sell at 2010 prices?   

[joe s.]

I'm positive your right on the lens reflector grid.  Sure would be nice to find something that made it "better".  My RF coverage is dead-solid, but If there was a way-more-sensitive sensor for specific (vs general) applications it would sure be nicer than cluttering up a room with these little guys.

[bkenobi]

That is the primary reason I'm not using these in front of my garage.  They are not particularly sensitive, they only send a command when motion is sensed at their own discretion (not instantly), and they have a bad view angle (for my needs).  I looked at a lot of motion sensors (both wired and wireless) and the best range/view angle combination in an affordable package was the Heath Zenith line of wired sensors.  I started with 2 or 3 sensors across the face of my 3 car garage and was able to detect someone walking within a car length of the door (basically, ~1/4 of the cement pad).  I installed a single Heath unit and could cover that plus out into the gravel strip.  It does tend to detect swarms of small birds flying around as well as tree limbs sometimes.  I added some code to handle false positives during the day and they aren't much of an issue at night.

I pulled apart a spare Heath sensor yesterday with the hopes that I could locate the power supply (AC to DC circuitry).  If so, I was thinking I might be able to cut that out of the loop and power it directly with a battery of some kind.  That would allow me to mount the module on a standard box anywhere I want and add whatever wireless transceiver setup I want to communicate back to the Raspi.  Of course, I don't know what kind of battery life I might see, so this could be impractical.  If the draw wasn't too bad, there's even a chance I could do some kind of solar panel since these will face south.

BTW, it would be MUCH easier if X10 sensors just had better range and were actually intended for outdoor use.   

[joe s.]

Its not like experimenting would be expensive (see ebay link below)

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-IR-Pyroelectric-Infrared-PIR-Motion-Sensor-Detector-Module-HC-SR501-SY/221525163849?_trksid=p2054897.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D1e41775cd1bf474f9eca091a72895f6a%26pid%3D100204%26prg%3D20140407115239%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D171567224143

But delivering appropriate power to a device like this (4.5v) and accessing the contacts for code/RF gen. of something from a stick-on switch or X10 key fob would be interesting (if not a high chance of success certainly a learning experience).