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Author Topic: Video doorbells anyone?  (Read 2266 times)

bkenobi

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Video doorbells anyone?
« on: January 10, 2024, 07:56:36 PM »

I have a mechanical chime in my house that uses a motor to trigger a 4-8 note tune using 3 "bells".  I've had a Ring video doorbell (gen 1 I think) worked fine out of the box but they increased the service cost and I never used the features eventually uninstalling their app entirely when the local news kept showing pictures/videos the local police were using to capture low level crime (vandalism for instance) without the apparent permission of the owners of the cameras they used.  I've decided that I'd like to install a different model that has at least some free features with local data (no cloud) and works with the existing chime.  I can get some of these but have not found all yet.

I narrowed the choices down and picked the Wyze video doorbell (original) initially as it has a great community (due to other hackable cameras in the lineup) and ability to keep everything local on SD.  After a very short time, I realized that although I could get it to work for the most part, it did not ring the existing chime (it has it's own plugin module).  I returned that and got the Wyze doorbell v2 which is designed to work with existing chimes via a chime control module.  After installing and tinkering for days, I have had it either working correctly, working without the doorbell, or for no reason constantly ringing the bell every few seconds.  Wyze tech support has given up and said to return it, but I'm stubborn.   rofl

I think the reason the OG Ring worked was that it had a battery in it and could be either wired or wireless.  As a result, if the button was pressed and the mechanical chime motor pulled the power down below 16v or used too much of the current (or whatever their threshold is), it would run off battery.  Many video doorbells recommend upgrading to a 16v/30va transformer which I found didn't help.  The Wyze unit opted for no battery so I've noticed that during some/most testing the unit will reset when the motor is running and playing the tune.  I have a suspicion that the camera defaults to push the doorbell button when turned on/reset ungracefully, so I suspect every time it resets it causes another brown out by running the motor again.

I can either go back to searching for another option or I can see if anyone knows how a standard 16VAC doorbell system works and if there are any ways to make one of these work since the MFG has not really done so.  So far I've only found high level discussion of how American doorbell systems work so I'm kinda working in the dark here.  Thoughts?

brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2024, 08:35:42 PM »

I use a Eufy S330 which ticks all your boxes except for triggering the motorized bells.  BUT, since Eufy works with Alexa you could use an Alexa compatible relay to trigger the bells. I do that with the Smartenit Harmony to trigger lights from the doorbell.

Eufy doorbell: https://www.amazon.com/Ewelink-Wireless-Inching-Selflock-Compatible/dp/B0C7QQHMCX/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2Y6HYJI4BSMW6&keywords=alexa%2Brelay&qid=1704936555&sprefix=alexa%2Brelay%2Caps%2C309&sr=8-10&th=1

Alexa Compatible Relay: https://www.amazon.com/Ewelink-Wireless-Inching-Selflock-Compatible/dp/B0C7QQHMCX/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2Y6HYJI4BSMW6&keywords=alexa%2Brelay&qid=1704936555&sprefix=alexa%2Brelay%2Caps%2C309&sr=8-10&th=1
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2024, 12:17:17 AM »

One of the key requirements i have is that the chime work as it currently does.  We don't have reliable enough/fast enough internet to trust any cloud service.  I'd consider it as a secondary feature but not as the main capability.  I need the doorbell to work as a primary function and the video is more secondary.

I was really hoping to understand how doorbell systems works so I could potentially design something to make one of the existing non-compatible doorbell cameras into one that worked as I need it.  That may be asking a lot since i don't know if the mechanism that makes them work.  Seems like it's just 16vac that when connected through the button triggers either an electric buzzer or series of solenoid strikes or in my case a motor that fires a series of solenoid strikes.  I'm not sure why the cameras can't work with these seemingly simple devices other than mine draws too much current.  But, not being an electrical I'm just assuming which is likely wrong.

brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2024, 12:12:33 PM »

Have a look at this Amcrest video doorbell that has a relay output to trigger your existing chimes.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091KMT9GB?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_8EZK8Q3QE22VZ4ZVX7JJ
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2024, 03:26:29 PM »

Those look promising.  The have compatibility with existing chimes listed, can be used without a monthly service and local data, and it looks like they can be used for more than one on a system because they have lots of offerings.  I called tech support to confirm it would fit my needs but got mixed results.

They said that their cameras are generally compatible with Nutone.  However, they didn't know about the motor (had no clue what I was talking about).  They suggested buying one to try and then returning if it didn't work.

The other problem (and bigger really) is when I asked if I could use up to 3 cameras on the same door chime and transformer, he said they are not compatible.  I don't know why since I can install a larger transformer to provide more power, but still no.

Since these are strictly wired (no battery), I'm not sure if they would work or not.  It might be worth trying one to see since all the other specs look good.  Before I do, is there any way to isolate the camera from the chime via a relay of some kind?  I'm not clear how that could be accomplished since the camera is powered by the trigger line back to the chime.

bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2024, 05:49:20 PM »

While doing more research, I found a youtube channel detailing how to properly service Nutone chimes.  I found it interesting but it didn't answer how I could make a motorized chime work.  The channel is run by an old service person for Nutone so he listed his company info and believe it or not was very easy to talk to!  He provided several videos that he says will make it possible to set up pretty much any doorbell camera with any chime.  I haven't watched them yet, but I believe the answer is I'll need to install a rectifier relay board at the chime.  Either way, it sounds like it should be possible to get working after all!

brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2024, 08:37:51 PM »

That's great news! Glad you found the guy. Can you share those videos?
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2024, 10:15:52 PM »

I'm about to sit down and watch them so can't say how useful they will be yet.  That said, here's the links he provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6YswmDNVyI&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LXCcLr_HHA&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJZV7k1nlxk&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=9

He said that the first two are to set up the camera and the doorbell and the last is to link them together (the critical component as I see it).  I'm going to spend the next couple hours hopefully learning everything doorbell and cameras and have a solution.

brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2024, 02:19:23 AM »

Interesting videos. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I'd thought about doing something similar to trigger a device that I used to ring all the phones but, since we have Alexa devices in pretty much every room now, Alexa plays a chime and announces that someone rang the bell. I can also set it to announce when someone approaches the door when the camera sees them.  The benefit there is that a delivery guy that leaves something at the door without ringing the bell is also announced.
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2024, 11:32:24 AM »

Watched those and a few others.  In the end, my initial assumption about how these things work was pretty accurate.

Basically, the chime is a 16vac system driven by a transformer.  The chime itself (in its simplest form) doesn't do anything until the button is pressed.  That shorts the contact from 16vac to the solenoid which causes the "ding".  When the button is released, the solenoid releases and swings back the other way hitting the "dong".  With a simple mechanical doorbell like this, power is fed at 16vac/10va (typically) directly to the doorbell button so a camera would have no issue using the power provided power to run.  The only issue would be when the button is pushed the solenoid could pull too much current and brown out the camera's power so if it has no battery/capacitor to smooth out that 1-2 second button press it might reset.

A more complicated system like one with an intercom doesn't work that way and acts more like a traditional contact/dry switch though it's using 16vac for some reason.  The voltage has no available current so it can't run a doorbell camera though it might be able to charge one very slowly should it have a battery.  In this case, a separate 16vac transformer is required and the button press must be accomplished via a relay.

In my case, I have a mechanical doorbell (solenoid ding-dong with 3 tones that can play 4 or 8 notes).  It also has a rear and side door option which will simply "ding" or "dong" when those are pressed.  When I connect my camera up to the side or rear contacts it works fine because it's a effectively a standard mechanical doorbell with a single solenoid.  However, when I hook up to the front door, it has a motor with an encoder on the main board.  When the button is pressed, the motor spins and the contacts sweep across the different positions causing the 4- or 8-note pattern.  The issue seems to be that, much like the intercom style systems, it does not provide enough power to the camera when the motor is running.  I can resolve that by using a separate power supply and relay.

However, I am going to see if I can locate a higher power transformer (40va or more) to see if that will provide sufficient current even with the motor running.  If not, I'll have to find a way to fit a relay somewhere and probably run wires to the doorbell somehow.  If that's the case, I probably won't be using this brand and may opt to go back to the OG Ring unit that worked fine (because it has a battery for wired/wireless usage).

bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2024, 01:43:15 PM »

I heard back from the creator and he pretty much said no to all of my suspicions so who knows.  Anyway, his blanket answer is the only reliable way to make video doorbells work is via a relay and a separate power supply.  It may work with the existing transformer powering the chime system, but that's not how the chimes are designed to work so it's not ideal.  While I agree, installing a new power supply and relay is possible though can be difficult due to where the conductors would need to be (behind drywall and most likely insulated gaps).  I'm going to bench test before running any wires and may have to change cameras.  I think I have all the parts needed to test so just have to find some time.

brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2024, 06:33:22 PM »

Amazon has lots of 16v40va and even 50va in the plug-in format. The open transformer type seems to max at 30va unless you go to 24v.
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2024, 01:41:28 AM »

I considered buying one from Amazon because the 16vac/50w and 16vac/100w units I found claimed free returns.  I asked the creator of the videos about a higher current transformer and he indicated that had zero chance of working.  He knows these chimes inside and out so I'm inclined to believe him.  That said, he doesn't know this camera or really any other than the Ring v1 he owns and the Nest Hello which he was loaned.  The Wyze Doorbell v2 includes a controller module that connects to the transformer, the doorbell, and the doorbell switch on the board.  It basically sits between the terminal and the button and injects power so the doorbell camera always has power.  It seems like it should work but for some reason it doesn't.  I'm not educated enough to know how to make it work, but at least I can share the info I have so maybe someone else can learn.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 01:46:20 AM by bkenobi »
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brobin

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2024, 12:23:39 PM »

The Eufy camera that I have came with a plug-in chime module that does the typical 8 tone "Big Ben" tones that sounds pretty good. Multiple chime units can be used throughout the house if needed but Alexa handles that part.  May be worth trying.
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bkenobi

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Re: Video doorbells anyone?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2024, 07:47:21 PM »

It appears most of the camera manufacturers have opted to go that route these days.  Wyze has at least 3 doorbell cameras now with only the v2 being compatible with existing doorbells.  All of their other options include a chime module like the Eufy you mentioned.  If I had a contractor special doorbell/chime system, I would just use the module and would have no issues.  Since the one I have is pretty fancy looking by doorbell standards and sounds really good, I would rather keep it. My grandparents farm house had a terrible buzzer.  If we had one of those I would replace it in a heartbeat!
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