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Author Topic: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS  (Read 19661 times)

Charles Sullivan

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 09:09:07 PM »

Yes  did move the cma15 without a pc attached. But is it better to leave the pc attached at all time then? Cz i usually dont, it just sits on its own in the living room now (the cma15) I did the dryer test and still the same thing.. HA, it seems as if nothing is working for me.. Whats next. Im standing by my computer now waiting for responses

Once you get everything working it's probably simpler to leave the CM15A disconnected.

Do I understand you correctly that everything works OK except the bathroom and hall switches?  If so, lets concentrate on those locations, one at a time.

Can you identify a receptacle which is on the same branch circuit as either of these?  It may mean flipping off the (one) circuit breaker which feeds that location and then finding a "dead" receptacle.  After restoring the power, plug the CM15A into that receptacle and see it the results are any better for that particular switch.  If not, plug  one of your Lamp Modules into that same receptacle along with the CM15A and see if it works while the switch doesn't.  If so, then I'd suspect a defective switch.

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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2006, 07:39:00 PM »

ok. I moved the switches around and i am now able to eliminate the possibility of a bad or defective switch.
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2006, 07:47:24 PM »

OK, now plug the CM15A into a socket on the same breaker as one of the bad locations and see how it works there.

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vhoang

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2006, 07:56:41 PM »

Try what charles suggest, get the cm as on the same circuit as the lights  with the problems, as close as possible.  (by turning off the breaker to the light and finding a dead socket)

It will help identify if there is something between point A (the cm) & B (your switch) that may be causing your problem.

Side Question:

Are your bathroom light or hallway lights florescent lights by any chance?
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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 09:47:22 AM »

Hey, ok i moved the cma15 in a plug on the same ciruit, and still no change.
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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2006, 09:48:07 AM »

BTW,  im not using florescent
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Puck

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2006, 10:08:53 AM »

I don't have any automation controls currently on any of my bathrooms circuits.
So I'm wondering if a GFI outlet can somehow degrade the X10 signal in it's process of monitoring current entering & exiting it?

Hopefully one of the other members can answer this from experience.

locorider21: Because I'm not sure about this and I'm trying to think what might be on your circuit, maybe trip the GFI test button and see if that makes any difference. (Not sure if being tripped actually removes the monitoring circuit though.)
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2006, 11:57:42 AM »

I don't have any automation controls currently on any of my bathrooms circuits.
So I'm wondering if a GFI outlet can somehow degrade the X10 signal in it's process of monitoring current entering & exiting it?

Hopefully one of the other members can answer this from experience.

locorider21: Because I'm not sure about this and I'm trying to think what might be on your circuit, maybe trip the GFI test button and see if that makes any difference. (Not sure if being tripped actually removes the monitoring circuit though.)


Ordinary GFI-protected outlets are normally not a problem.  About a third of my X10 modules (and the CM11A itself) are on GFI-protected outlets, either at the outlet itself or on a branch with a GFI breaker in the breaker box.  However there are questions about the newer arc-detecting GFIs, which I understand are being installed in bedrooms in newer construction.

locorider21:  Are bathroom and hall  on the same breaker?  What other rooms are on the same breaker(s)?

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dave w

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2006, 12:29:30 PM »

FWIW
I have not had a GFI breaker stop X10 signal but HAVE had GFI outlets kill X10 at the GFI outlet and all outlets fed by the GFI outlet's feed thru. Also, I have had some GFI outlets which did not cause a problem, and unfortunately they were same brand (Leviton) but different models. (the problem children were older units). I believe the problem is how the GFI design senses the current on the hot and neutral lines. My problem unit had hot and neutral conductors looped through a heavy toroid. The non problem design had the conductors only passing through a much smaller toroid (no turns of wire around the torrid). Apparently multiple turns in a fairly large torrid provides enough inductance to really attenuate the X10 signal.

Not much useful information here, other than the fact that some GFI outlets can block X10 signals.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 12:14:00 PM by dave w »
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2006, 12:45:33 PM »

Thanks for the input Dave.  I had one of the GFI outlets burn out and when I opened it up I saw just the two leads passing through the toroid - no looping - as you describe.  Unfortunately none of the GFIs I've seen could be opened for inspection without wrecking it.

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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2006, 10:28:28 PM »

Ok. hall and circuit are not on same breakers. And i do not have any of those test stop button plugs in my bathroom> reminder: there are wall switched im trying to control, not plugs. Is there anything else i can do?
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vhoang

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2006, 11:08:09 PM »

All bathroom and kitchen sockets are typically protected (electrical code requires it - anything near water really) with only 1 socket somewhere on the circuit with the test button on it.

I swiped this off of smarthome's info page:

Some GFCI devices don't like X10 signals
Yes, I know, it's hard to believe that something would not like X10 signals. We sometimes get calls and letters from customers who mention control problems on GFCI protected circuits. Typically, X10 devices that are down-stream of some GFCI devices will not react to X10 signals. We have concluded that some GFCI fixtures are attenuating the X10 signals. Some brands have more of a negative effect on the signals than do others.

Is there a work-around solution? Two solutions exist: Find a GFCI outlet that does not attenuate signals. Buy your GFCI devices from a supplier that has a liberal return policy. If the brand you install does not pass X10 signals, exchange it for a different brand. Moving to a different model within the same manufacture's family may not fix the problem. Another alternative is to install an amplified coupler repeater that can "blast" the X10 signals over the lines with a high signal strength. Even after the GFCI outlet, there will be plenty of signal strength at the outlet. Most X10 modules need 100mV for reliable operation.

----

Which basically sais some (any) GFCI outlets on a circuit can be sucking up your x10 signal.   Plug in a boosterlinc on the circuit closest toward the breaker panel might amplify the signal enough to get past the outlet causing the problem.   A switch on the same circuit as a outlet will share the same "powerline noise" while only x10 modules downstream of attenuation problems suffer from signal absorption.

Again switchs and outlets are basically the same source, line load ground neutral.
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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2006, 11:18:09 PM »

But i have no outlets in my home with a test button. My home is a little older. 1978 is when it was built
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2006, 11:43:55 PM »

Ok. hall and circuit are not on same breakers. And i do not have any of those test stop button plugs in my bathroom> reminder: there are wall switched im trying to control, not plugs. Is there anything else i can do?

An installer once mentioned going into the breaker box and snugging down all the neutral connections.  I have no idea how often a loose neutral ends up being the cause of a noise problem, but it appears you've done about everything else I can think of short of plugging in an X10 signal meter and checking for noise.

Do you have all copper wiring?  Not aluminum or copper-clad aluminum?  I understand aluminum can be a problem, for more than just X10 reasons.

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locorider21

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Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2006, 12:23:31 AM »

I will check the wiring. Does anyone have a working x10 tester i can use. i would pay for shipping and return to you. I think its too expensive to buy it for a one time use.
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